Why Are Some People Late Bloomers?

Why Are Some People Late Bloomers?

A good garden may have some weeds.
~Thomas Fuller

Does another “30 under age 30” achievement list make you wonder if you’re doing life wrong?

Does a story about a grandma who ran her first marathon in her 80s make your day?

If you’re a “late-blooming” adult, like I am, you’re not alone. We’ve got some exceptional company!

I’m not talking about people who started early and kept going, like Picasso, Kurosawa, or Joyce Carol Oates.

This blog celebrates people who don’t discover their creative passion until their mid-30s or later, or who realize it young but can’t pursue it until adulthood—Later Bloomers.

In this article, we first tackle the hard stuff and examine how early setbacks and poverty might affect late blooming. Then we explore the good stuff—multiple passions, unique learning patterns, and the lives of famous late bloomers.

How Early Setbacks Can Affect Late Blooming

defying gravityAt age 10, Linda Bach stood by, helpless, while her father die of a heart attack.

She vowed to become a doctor so she could save other lives. At age 20, she graduated at the top of her college class with a microbiology degree and applied to medical school.

During her entrance interview, she faced a panel of six men. Their first question—did she plan to marry and have children?

“Yes,” she answered. “After I finish school and establish my practice.”  One of the examiners said under his breath, “God, I’d hate to be your kids.”  She didn’t get in.

Devastated, Linda asked her college counselor for advice. He didn’t see a problem. Why didn’t she just get married and have kids?

For a young woman in 1969 with no mentor, entering a male-dominated field seemed impossible. Linda felt rejection by two sources of authority—the review board and her counselor—foretold failure.

Today, thanks to the Internet, we can discover everything about anything. In the past, however, we depended on parents, teachers and libraries to guide us. The quality of that guidance varied from place to place, individual to individual.

For the fortunate, it lead to success. For others, like Linda, its lack slammed the door to their dreams—but not forever.

Linda Bach entered medical school at the age of 46. She is currently a doctor in private practice. Her story is told in Defying Gravity: A Celebration of Late-Blooming Women by Prill Boyle.

How Poverty Can Affect Late Blooming

Albert Einstein had an IQ of 150. Chris Langan’s IQ is so high that it can’t be measured. But you’ve probably never heard of him unless you’ve read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

Some would say bad luck dogged Langan.

His car broke down and he couldn’t afford to fix it. He could hitch into town for afternoon classes, but the admin office wouldn’t let him transfer to the later sessions. His mother forgot to sign his scholarship application, so they rejected it.

His college took the hard-line. They kicked him out.

Gladwell thinks that Langan could have turned things around if only he’d learned to negotiate with authority figures.

But that, and his “bad luck,” are symptoms of deeper problem—extreme poverty.

While growing up, food was a luxury. He owned only the clothes on his back. His stepfather beat him for eight years.

Langan’s brother explained,

I couldn’t get financial aid either. We just had zero knowledge, less than zero knowledge of the process. How to apply. The forms. Checkbooks. It was not our environment.

Langan might as well have been raised on Mars. The guy with an IQ higher than Einstein ended up as a Rhode Island bouncer for 20 years.

Savant Daniel Tammet speculates that an intersection between talent and delayed opportunity causes late-blooming:

If you’re born in a very poor environment, where you’re not given books and you’re not given good education and then subsequently doors are closed to you that are open to others who perhaps don’t have your talent…I could well imagine that throughout our history there are people who have come into their own relatively late in life.

Chris Langan

Langan now raises horses and hones his cognitive-theoretic model of the universe—a grand theory of all origins. Sometimes he gets oddly poetic. (“I just had a chance encounter with a garden slug, and it got me thinking about time.”)

But Langan will never be published in an academic journal, because he didn’t get the right credentials. Many of his would-be peers (with lower IQs) think he’s a crackpot.

Perhaps it doesn’t matter. He’s living his dream—a quiet life devoted to higher learning. And the Internet has become a great equalizer. One day Chris Langan’s name might be as recognizable as Albert Einstein’s.

The Truth About What We Choose to Become

Carl Jung wrote, “I am not what happened to me, I am what I choose to become.” A brave statement, but sometimes we do become what was done to us, a state known as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The National Institute of Health defines PTSD as

an anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to a terrifying event or ordeal in which grave physical harm occurred or was threatened. Traumatic events that may trigger PTSD include violent personal assaults, natural or human-caused disasters, accidents, or military combat.

Psychotherapy recognized PTSD in the aftermath of Viet Nam.  But PTSD doesn’t affect only veterans of war or victims of atrocities.

Children can develop PTSD after experiencing physical or psychological abuse or even playground bullying.  PTSD symptoms can surface after learning about a traumatic experience second-hand.

The numbness, anxiety and emotional emptiness that characterize PTSD will kill the joy, passion and excitement necessary to bloom early.

But there is a great deal of hope.

Weeds are flowers too, once you get to know them.
~A.A. Milne

Recent media fixation on The Secret makes any discussion of hardship taboo. The “law” of attraction decrees if life doesn’t go your way, you didn’t visualize or believe with enough faith in the limitless universe.

What kind of law tells victims of rape, war, poverty, and other tragedies that they authored their own misfortune?

If youth has left scars, being told to “move on” or “get over it” is insulting.You may never get over it, but the world needs your special gift. Each person has one thing they must do that no one else can.

If this section rings true, you might want to consult a therapist to cultivate your gift. Or you might not.

But, no matter how thoughtful or wild, forthright or sneaky, typical or unconventional, you must find some way for your gift to triumph over what was done to you.

Paul Cezanne at Debra Eve's LaterBloomer.com
Old Master Paul Cézanne

Specialization is a Recent Compulsion

During the Renaissance, humanism arose in revolt against the limits of Medieval education, which confined learning to law, medicine and theology.

The movement reignited interest in what we now call the humanities—classics, languages, literature, philosophy, arts of all types.

Many of our greatest minds were “Renaissance Men.”

Benjamin Franklin was a writer, printer, soldier, politician and diplomat. He invented bifocals, the lightning rod and the Franklin stove. Peter Mark Roget was a doctor, teacher, inventor, designer and compiler of the famous Thesaurus.

Specialization is a relatively recent compulsion.

Some people have wide-ranging passions. They have no desire to specialize because they’re driven by curiousity and wonder. In today’s world, they’re often denigrated.

Margaret Lobenstine calls this type of Later Bloomer a Renaissance Soul. She writes:

Renaissance Souls much prefer variety and combination over focusing all their energies on one thing. They prefer widening options by opening more and more doors, to narrowing choices by specializing and sub-specializing.

After succeeding in one area, the Renaissance Soul will seek a completely new adventure instead of accepting a promotion or job hopping to a higher salary.

Why Are Some People Late Bloomers? at Debra Eve's LaterBloomer.com
The musical South Pacific was based on Michener’s first novel

This might be why many Later Bloomers eventually become writers.

James Michener didn’t publish Tales of the South Pacific until age 40. He became famous for epic historical novels—Hawaii, Iberia, Poland, Texas, Alaska and Mexico—and wrote prolifically until his death at 90.

But he also wrote non-fiction on subjects as diverse as The Modern Japanese Print, Sports in America and A Century of Sonnets.

Before becoming a writer, Michener peddled chestnuts, toured America by boxcar, joined a carnival, enlisted in the Army, taught English, and edited textbooks.

Other late-blooming authors (and their former lives) include:

  • Miguel de Cervantes (valet, soldier, tax collector)—Don Quixote, age 58
  • Daniel Defoe (wine merchant, terrorist, tax collector)—Robinson Crusoe, age 60
  • Charles Perrault (civil servant)—Tales from Mother Goose, age 67
  • Bram Stoker (civil servant, theater manager)—Dracula, age 50
  • Isak Dineson (coffee rancher)—Seven Gothic Tales, age 49 and Out of Africa, age 52
  • P.D. James (civil servant, hospital administrator)—Published her first Adam Dalgliesh mystery in 1962, at age 42.

By far, writers comprise the largest subgroup of Later Bloomers I’ve researched.

The Two Life Cycles of Artistic Creativity

David Galenson is an economics professor who writes about artists.

In Old Masters and Young Geniuses: The Two Life Cycles of Artistic Creativity, Galenson examined the auction prices of paintings throughout several artists’ lives. He identified two distinct patterns, not just in art, but in other creative fields:

Why Are Some People Late Bloomers? at Debra Eve's LaterBloomer.com
Picasso, self-portrait, age 25

Conceptual innovators peak early. They’re our prodigies and “young geniuses.” They see the whole scenario, then execute it—on canvas, in writing, on a music score sheet.

Picasso is the classic conceptual innovator. Picasso once said,

When I paint, my object is to show what I have found, not what I am looking for…I have never made trials or experiments.

Other conceptual innovators include Johannes Vermeer, Herman Melville, Sylvia Plath and Orson Welles.

Experimental innovators, on the other hand, are classic “old masters” and late bloomers. According to Galenson, they:

  • need a visual objective;
  • work slowly and incrementally;
  • consider their creative endeavors a form of research;
  • value the accumulation of knowledge over the result;
  • become totally absorbed while pursuing an ambitious, vague and elusive goal; and
  • experience frustration that their goal may be unobtainable.

They consider creative output “as a process of searching, in which they aim to discover the image in the course of making it.”

Paul Cézanne is a classic experimental innovator. He created his most valuable paintings (in terms of auction price) at the end of his life. Just a month before he died, Cézanne wrote:

Now it seems to me that I see better and that I think more correctly about the direction of my studies. Will I ever attain the end for which I have striven so much and so long? I hope so, but…until I have realized something better than in the past…I continue to study.

Learning by discovery and experimentation may take longer, but the results will be worth it.


Not all those who wander are lost.
~J.R.R. Tolkien

Curiosity and wonder drive many Later Bloomers. They have too many passions to settle. Plus, as David Galenson discovered, they often learn through discovery and experimentation, so achievement takes longer.

Daniel Pink (Al Gore’s old speechwriter and another lapsed lawyer) had this to say about Galenson’s work:

Of course, not every unaccomplished 65-year-old is some undiscovered experimental innovator. This is a universal theory of creativity, not a Viagra for sagging baby boomer self-esteem. It’s no justification for laziness or procrastination or indifference. But it might bolster the resolve of the relentlessly curious, the constantly tinkering, the dedicated tortoises undaunted by the blur of the hares.

In the end, though, you define success for yourself. What I like about Wikipedia’s late bloomer definition—”a person who does not discover their talents and abilities until later than normally expected”—is the sly implication that normalcy might be superfluous.

Further Reading

I researched the following books and articles for this post and highly recommend them:

41 Responses

  1. GutsyWriter
    | Reply

    Glad you found me via GetintheHotspot. I am a late bloomer (career-wise) for a different reason. It took time to focus on something I didn’t realize was a passion: writing and promoting. Blogging has helped me discover this as well as my kids leaving for college, and having time to focus on what I want to be now. Thanks for coming over and let’s stay in touch. Sonia.

    • Debra Eve

      Definitely, Sonia. I’ve subscribed to your feed and look forward to your latest adventures!

  2. Sara @Soulspackle
    | Reply

    I’m so with you on The Secret. I think a lot of the LOA movement does more harm than good, although I do get the basic idea that we can *choose* how to handle what comes rather than become victims to it. In Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway, Susan Jeffers says we must take responsibility — but by that she simply means to empower ourselves to move forward, NOT to become *victims of ourselves* because of some perceived judgment about how we got where we did. Vicious circle, isn’t it?

    • Debra Eve

      Hi Sara! I think it’s easy to get caught in a negativity trap when life gets tough, and extremely hard to change one’s mindset toward the positive. But The Secret takes “you are the author of your problems” to an extreme. I agree that the LOA movement can be very damaging. These days, I try to find concentrate on the positive, but not beat myself up when I can’t change my attitude or situation right away.

    • Liam

      Thanks a lot Debra for this great post… I have a late bloomer brother that is a musician and has been struggling to create his art and passion. Can you give me advise for him?
      Can I put a link of his music in this page? Maybe people with an open mind can hear his music.
      Thanks again!

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Liam, I’m not well-versed in the music arena, but some steps apply to most creative fields. Your brother needs a professionally-designed website that profiles his music. Then he can give away tracks on it, perhaps in return for an email address so he can tell people when his album is ready. Here’s an example from someone my husband used to play for: http://jameshoulahan.com/. In fact, James is a great example of a singer/songwriter working the Internet and social media well. I know several music sites exist that will let your brother post tracks for sale — Reverbnation.com, Soundcloud.com. Posting here won’t do him much good, sorry, but he should check out how the musicians he admires are going about it. Thanks for stopping by!

  3. Joe
    | Reply

    Thanks so much for this post. It is exactly what I needed today. I especially liked the story of Chris Langan with the IQ ‘so high it can’t be measured’. Whenever I try to give to cut myself the tiniest bit of slack for my lack of knowledge and inability to get around certain stumbling blocks in my youth, the voice in my head always curtly reminds me that if I were smart enough, I’d have found a way. It’s encouraging to see that even someone of genius IQ couldn’t figure things out. 🙂

    The ideas about ‘lack of guidance and opportunity’ are interesting as well. I’m forever beating myself up in comparison to the great men who succeeded in my fields throughout history. Most were already well on their way or ‘there’ at my age (and even a lot younger). But while they certainly deserve all the credit and recognition received, they started out with a lot of advantages I didn’t. Most were set up or at least given the tools to succeed by others at a young age. In other words, lots of guidance and opportunity. That’s not to say they didn’t face adversity or overcome challenges but there’s nothing wrong with pointing out advantages they had as well.

    I also had some traumatic issues as well. However, all we ever hear about is how ‘a stronger person’ would have triumphed in spite of it. And I will triumph in the end too. But it still feels like only early achievers are valued in this society.

    • Debra Eve

      Hi Joe, your story is so familiar. I can’t believe someone isn’t doing serious academic research into this area. I’m just a synthesizer.

      Malcolm Gladwell is the closest, but as I mention in Part 2, he basically comes up with “early achievers succeed through support; late achievers succeed through support.” But few late bloomers have the support he describes in his hallmark article.

      I’m out to celebrate late bloomers — start a whole celebratory movement. We’re a huge demographic. I do find prodigies fascinating, but there’s something so rich about late blooming, about the stops and starts and the will to win through. (Like yours!) Thanks for stopping by.

  4. Biswa Prasun Chatterji
    | Reply

    Very nice article, very inspiring……

    • Debra Eve

      Thank you!

  5. Yapper002
    | Reply

    I don’t know if you realize it, but this post illustrates a dramatic east / west culture clash.

    I live in S.E. Asia, and I am a late bloomer (I failed in school, at one point failing English and maths). Today I provide content for Yahoo Finance and Xin MSN, and I front a finance column in a local mag.

    My childhood was harsh by Western standards. I had hot wax dripped on the back of my hands, or chilli rubbed into my eyes for failure. For the more severe punishments, I used to have the back of my hands scored with a fine needle.

    Which was not unusual in my culture, it’s just a form of discipline. The current perspective here is that the harsh upbringing is responsible for my eventual success. In the West, the opposite view holds true: That it was breaking away from this sort of thing that let me grow.

    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    • Debra Eve

      I’m sure you’ve heard the controversy engendered by the book “The Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother” here. It’s about a Chinese-American mother trying to raise her daughters with the same strict discipline she was raised with. Some critics praised the book, but others saw it as a description of child abuse. I landed somewhere in the middle. Her methods, to be clear, were nothing like what you experienced, but they did illustrate the east-west culture clash you mention.

      Try as I might, however, I can’t adopt cultural relativity with your situation. I don’t believe in torture as a means to any end. I believe in discipline, yes. But what you describe would contravene the Geneva Convention. It’s not responsible for your current success. That credit is all yours and you should be proud of it.

  6. Soubhagya Kumar Patra
    | Reply

    Hi Debra,

    It was just a random search on google, about such related articles. I find your your lines, thoughts, and explanations on Late bloomers are quite superb and awesome.

    Here m gonna subscribe your email feeds, hope I will get similar motivating articles in future. 🙂

    • Debra Eve

      Thanks for subscribing, Soubhagya. I try to post every Sunday, so I won’t overrun your mailbox!

  7. Your X Classmate
    | Reply

    Been a while since eight grade……

    Just read your book “Later Bloomers” and greatly enjoyed it. Gives me a lot of hope looking forward to the second half of my life….

    The concepts you explain here are great life lessons….. A good read for all.

    You turned out good kid!!

    Greg Boone

    • Debra Eve

      Hi Greg, thanks so much. I swear, sometimes 8th grade seems like yesterday. It was 40 years ago, and you know, we could still be alive in another 40 years. Mind-boggling, isn’t it? It’s a thought that keeps me with this project!

  8. Deborah Pattillo Oliver
    | Reply

    Hi Debra,
    I am so excited to see your blog. Wow can it be over 30 years since we lived on Puritan Street together? I’m touched by the story about your Dad. I remember him well. He was an incredible artist and you inherited that gift.
    I started my business at the age of 52. I never considered myself a “late bloomer” as a matter of fact I always say “I think I peaked too early”. It wasn’t until my children were gone (by gone I mean in college raking up $$$$ tuition bills) that I decided to pursue my love of cooking and hospitality.
    It started as a way of helping with expenses and has turned into a passion that makes me very proud. So I guess I am a late bloomer after all since this new passion has given me a new outlook on self confidence, contentment and purpose. Love your posts, love your story and I’m so inspired by your encouragement.
    Debbie Pattillo Oliver 🙂

    • Debra Eve

      Thanks for your kind words, Deborah. So many troubles caused me to put my creative passions on hold, I’m excited to be doing this. I’ve got two foodies in my lineup, Ina Garten and Julia Child, so you’re in excellent company. Who knows? Maybe we’ll see DOT TV soon 🙂

  9. ike suarez
    | Reply

    yep. i am determined to be a late bloomer.

    • @DebraEve

      I’m a late bloomer and proud, Ike! We’re the future.

  10. sam
    | Reply

    music is my gift

    • @DebraEve

      It’s great you know that, Sam. Good luck in your musical endeavors — never stop!

  11. Tiela Garnett
    | Reply

    Hi Deb,
    Good Lord – I can’t believe how long it’s taken me to contact you! Happy Belated New Year, for starters. I’ve lost your business card but I remembered the name of your website, thank goodness. Please drop me an email and then we can be in proper touch. It was wonderful connecting with you at Wallace’s – I’ve had no news of Wallace in some time but, from her Facebook posts, it looks like she’s hard at work.
    Look forward to hearing from you! (And so sorry to be so miserably slow to connect.)
    xo Tiela

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Hey Tiela, yesterday, for some reason (maybe the Oscars) I actually thought, “I wonder whatever happened to Tiela?” So what a surprise to sign in and see you. I saw Wallace, I think, 3-4 weeks ago and yes, she’s working her keister off at the moment. Will send you an email!

  12. Patricia Taylor
    | Reply

    I run a group in an inpatient psyc unit for geriatrics and find your site to be full of good information to give group members. Thanks, and I always tell them to look you up!

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      I’m so flattered, Patricia! Thank you. It’s my hope to give hope, because it really is never too late.

  13. Vanessa
    | Reply

    I’m really glad I found this, I am a late bloomer too. I have experience all of that. Traumas, violence who lead to academic failure etc… I knew something was wrong to me, I feel I was ment to do great things, but I did not know why at this point of my life I haven’t. I’m only 21 years old and planing on going to collage. I won’t give up!
    I am what I choose to become.

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Good for you, Vanessa! It’s good you’ve recognized these things. No matter how long it takes, keep at it. I finished college at age 35 and I’m so glad I did.

  14. Lucy
    | Reply

    42 Not yet bloomed, but enjoying the journey.

  15. 1renoir
    | Reply

    These words are immensely powerful to me and perfectly confirming! I am 44 about to turn 45 and as my beautiful son has moved into his teen years, the wisdom I have gained through struggles with early parental loss, sexual abuse, depression, divorce, and negative guidance, are beginning to form in exciting ways as I revisit my art and am reaffirmed by friends that the idea of writing should very much be visited. My life is physically a complete chaotic, confused mess… but I have an excitement that wonderful, creative things are beginning to flow! I couldn’t be more pleased to feel this hope after all these years!! Thank you for this insightful blog and for allowing the commenters, who are equally strengthening!!!!!

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      I’m so glad you found the piece powerful. I’m actually about to revise and expand it. I wrote it in the early days of the blog, around 2010. One of my favorite quotes is not by a late bloomer, but a very early one, Mary Shelley (she wrote Frankenstein at age 17): “Invention, it must be humbly admitted, does not consist in creating out of void but out of chaos.” I hope your chaos transforms into beautiful creativity.

  16. Karen
    | Reply

    Thank you so much for this post, especially your take on The Secret, which I think is a particularly pernicious version of the Just-World Bias and only revictimizes victims. So many people (including some therapists who should have known better) have cut me off and refused to listen to my story because they were uncomfortable with hearing about suffering–instead I’ve been told to “forgive” and “let go” whatever that means. And some have even asked why I felt the need to report my abuser to the authorities and hold him accountable in court. As if I’m the one who did something wrong instead of him. Anyway, before this gets much longer, I just wanted to say that I’ve been really struggling with handling some PTSD stuff lately, and your post helped me a lot tonight. Thank you!

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Hi Karen, so sorry, getting over the flu, just saw this. I’m so happy my post helped you. Yes, I have a particular aversion to “The Secret” worldview and the way it has crept into the mental health professions. I really recommend Barbara Ehrenreich’s “Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America.” She describes how breast cancer victims have been blamed for “causing” their cancer through negative thinking. ACK! Makes me want to scream.

      If no one holds abusers accountable, what kind of world do we create? I applaud your courage. There are still good therapists who recognize PTSD for what it is…our mind’s defense against the indefensible. Keep searching…each person’s path through their pain is different. Forward movement is what counts.

  17. Thomas
    | Reply

    I’m a late bloomer in North Carolina.Where can I find a counselor to help me reach my potential.My phone number is [removed].Thanks in advance.

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Thomas, so sorry, that’s outside my expertise. I believe Psychology Today has a listing by state. That might be a good place to start.

  18. Karan
    | Reply

    Hii Debra,
    Frankly speaking today I got to know this term “late bloomer” and proud to know that society has a term/word to describe people like us (apart from looser or day dreamers or failure to launch & so on) in era of millionaire teenage entrepreneurs.
    I always wonder what type of personality I am & what I will describe my self to world when I get whichever success or failure in my later life..
    Its a big relief to know their are others like me..I thought I am the only rebel in my family & society.Although I choose to be late bloomer as their was no such condition with me to got late in career building but I am kind of person who is not settle for anything that I do not like to do…..And by the grace of god I do not know what I like to do 😉 ……may be a writer,photographer, event manager , traveler , performer , director or Investment banker which is currently I am pursuing in my 31st year of life.

    May be I do not have “Certificate of Achievement” or “big degree” in my life but lots of exciting life experience, very loyal friends , a very caring and highly tolerating family… 🙂 , thoughts on life , day dreaming ability and a very wired power of to start imagine things or situations irrespective of any point of time, place,condition or feeling I am in.

    whenever I have been compared with others and told to become (or I should say told to follow) like normal career wise successful man in rest of the world with beautiful wife and kids and home and financial security and so on…………….I always keep saying to within me/others “Its your opinion but its my life”.

    Thanks Debra to collect wired nuts like us who are not fit in this perfect world but happy in their own world.

    I know the comment got little big (& believe me I could write double of it)…but what else you expect from a late bloomer…. 🙂 . TC.

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      Thanks for such a heartfelt comment, Karen. You’ve got plenty of time to figure it out, but who says you need to figure it out anyway? I think rebellion has a lot to do with being a “late” bloomer, since cultural norms just hold us back. I’m in my 50s and finally combining many of the skills and passions I’ve developed in the last few decades into a direction. We’ll see how it works ;). Best of luck to you!

  19. Jacqueline
    | Reply

    Thank you ms. Eve. This post has to be my all time favorite. It’s filled with so much inspirations hope encouragemet information and truth. Your description of how a late bloomer may go about their process into realizing their potential was on point for me. I want to write my life story and I want to do it well. I’m a hairdresser that is moving into my next phase at 57, I’m a late bloomer. My research has been exciting and time intensive.
    Thank you. Keep ’em coming

    • Debra Eve | @DebraEve

      So glad you enjoyed it, Jacqueline. And please, I’m just Debra! Best of luck moving into your next phase.

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